68 Responses to “My initial views on Baba Ramdev's movement”

1. ashok says:

   August 1, 2010 at 10:29 pm

   sir where in the need to give thease Baba"s so importance.His economic intersts disturbed by communists in recent past ,required poltical presence. It is that simple…you will see in few days he will be favouring one or another potical party…depending upon the deal he strike with that party. I fully support him for that actions…..because otherwise his yoga empire will not flourish.
    
2. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

   August 1, 2010 at 11:04 pm

   Dear Ashok, no need to call me "Sir". Sanjeev is best.

   Re: your views on the Baba, I've heard sceptical views elsewhere as well, and don't discount them.

   But don't forget that his entire support base will COLLAPSE like a house of cards if he backs out from his comments re: eliminating corruption, etc. Thus if he joins or supports any other party he is finished.

   So it won't be in his strategic interest to do that. Instead, he'll try to ensure that he can actually deliver on his commitments. The fact that thousands of people line up for his talks shows there is a HUGE demand for change in India. And so he is now compelled to deliver. Whatever motivated him to enter politics in the first place (and I don't know anything about the validity of what you say), he is now sitting on a tiger that will (metaphorically) rip him apart if he fails, or (which amounts to the same thing) chooses to support any corrupt organisation. 
3. ujjayant says:

   August 2, 2010 at 4:01 am

   i appriciated u r work sir
4. Harsh says:

   August 2, 2010 at 8:24 am

   Note: These are the main points. There are a couple more points which I have edited here, but are included in my private message to you.
   I agree to your point about focusing on the public policy, as opposed to mere heroism and valor. As far as my knowledge of Swamiji is concerned, he has been working on Bharat Swabhiman for twenty years, at the least. Much planning and organization is involved in this movement. That said, I am yet to know the details of his policy measures. I know of one measure that he talks about often: Re-calling back all the large-denomination currency notes. Doing this, he says, will discourage bribery. Most bribe-givers will have to carry huge suitcases (with notes of small denominations) to pay huge amounts of bribes, which will be impossible for them. Hence, the reduction in huge bribes . . .

   There is a lot of debate on the 'self-sufficiency' topic, for it easily defies simple laws of economics. Looking at the current world economies, it seems that the a country cannot run without it being an open-economy (and open-trade). While I am not sure about Swamiji's strategy, I have heard him say that globalization is making poor countries poorer, and rich countries richer. MNCs do provide employment to the Indians, but carry back most of their profits to their own nations. Other dangers galore: For example, McDonald is encouraging non-vegetarianism (which is opposed to the principles of yoga and dharma, in general) among Indians. It will initiate obesity as well. Coca-cola is tremendously high in acids and, as he frankly says, can be best used as a toilet cleaner. These are just a few of the many examples.

   Lastly, I would comment in brief on your following words: "I don't believe changing people is either possible or necessary in order to get wonderful outcomes. Human nature has NEVER changed for a million years and won't change just because some Baba somewhere wants it to change. He doesn't control our DNA. That has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years."

   Swamiji's main work is to spread the message of yoga among the masses. He, like any accomplished yogi, believes in the power of yoga in mass transformation. His intention is to work from the inside out. Any public policy will work only as far as the respective party is in power. Whenever some other party comes to power, the policies change, even if to an extent. However, when the public is transformed from the inside-out, Dharma will prevail for years, no matter what happens to the party. After all, that is the end-result and purpose of yoga — to make one self-realized, and god-oriented. Swamiji is transforming people from the inside, thereby creating a strong base (inner base) for the survival of Dharma.

   He doesn't believe in the past that the world scientists have, for so long, proposed. According to the Vedas (and therefore, according to him), the theory of evolution is completely false. Hence, the "evolution of the DNA" that you talk about makes no sense for Vedic followers, including Swami Ramdev. According to the Vedic sources, golden civilizations prospered billions of years ago. And Swamiiji wishes to bring our glorious Bharat back once again. He is not just any "BABA," as you so lightly put it. He is an accomplished yogi, a celibate sage. To be sure of this fact, one only needs to look at the thousands of people who have been cured of the so-called "incurable" diseases.

   Having said all this, I really appreciate your questions. I am very open to your views. I believe that Swamiji (and Bharat Swambhiman) needs people like you. My views mentioned above do not completely explain your questions. However, I would encourage you to follow Swami Ramdev and his sub-leaders Acharya Balkrishnaji and Shri Rajiv Dixit. Swami Ramdev has planned for all the organization issues. If Swamiji departs (which I hope doesn't happen anytime soon), then Acharya Balkrishnaji will follow (I guess). If Bharat Swabhiman comes to power, then Shri Rajiv Dixit will be the PM (I have heard!).

   I am interested in knowing your views on the public policies Swamiji should adopt. Would you be comfortable introducing me to them?

   I look forward to reading 'Breaking Free of Nehru' soon!

   Harsh
5. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

   August 2, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    

   Dear Harsh

   Thanks a lot for taking the time to clarify these matters. Based on your internal Facebook comments I’ve amended the main post suitably.

   My initial response:

   1) “I know of one measure that he talks about often: Re-calling back all the large-denomination currency notes”.

   Let me suggest that this solution is not even remotely going to work. Most of the big corruption takes place with money going to Swiss banks, for instance. Plus this does not address the cause of corruption even remotely. What if I go in the middle of night and deliver a large suitcase full of case in a secret place? The size of the currency note is irrelevant.

   The causes of corruption (and hence solutions) have been clarified at length in Chapters 4 and 5 of Breaking Free of Nehru (http://bfn.sabhlokcity.com/). Please go through them. Removing corruption requires enormous policy knowledge, not this kind of “solution”.

   2) “While I am not sure about Swamiji's strategy, I have heard him say that globalization is making poor countries poorer, and rich countries richer.”

   This is incorrect. All the data are VERY clear: globalisation and trade increase the TOTAL wealth in the world, and hence individual country wealth. When India was the world’s largest trader (till the British came here), it was one of the wealthiest nations in the world. After trade was reduced (because of the British and also because of Nehruvian socialism), India’s growth collapsed. So this view is factually incorrect. Please read “Growth Triumphant” by Richard Easterlin. He has an excellent chapter on the role of trade in economic growth.

   3) “According to the Vedas (and therefore, according to him), the theory of evolution is completely false.”

    

   This, I’m afraid is not a valid claim (both against evolution and indeed, misrepresents the Vedas). First, the Vedas are not a monolithic document but a diverse set of verses created by hundreds of rishis and munnies. Second, they advance the scientific attitude. I refer you to Chapter 4 of my father’s book, “Glimpses of Vedic Metaphysics” at http://metaphysics.sabhlokcity.com/ which says the following:

   “To get a feel of Vedic physical sciences, reference to a few hymns are given in the very beginning. The Sun never sets or rises and it is the earth, which rotates (Sama Veda121). The gravitational effect of solar system makes the earth stable (R.V.1-103-2, 1-115-4 and 5-81-2). The axle of the earth does not get rusted and the earth continues to revolve on its axle (R.V. 1-164-29). The science of Time and its subtle nature is described in (R.V.1-92-12 and 1-95-8). The need to study the properties of water, air and fire for discovering and manufacturing aircrafts, ships and other vehicles capable of moving in the firmament, land and water are mentioned in Rig Veda 1-3-1,2, 1-34-1, 1-140-1 and many other hymns. Reference to infinite number of both gross and subtle atoms and the energy principle as spirit of God in each atom is given in R.V. 5-47-2 and Sama Veda 222. Atoms and sub atomic particles are not inert and have unsuspected vitality owing to this energy principle. Physical sciences relating to agriculture, medicine, astronomy mathematics particularly algebra, toxicology etc. are described in R.V.1-71-9, 4-57-5, Sama Veda 121 and many other hymns. However, the greater emphasis is on the development of scientific temper amongst the members of Society with a view to curb spread of blind faith, hypocrisy, miracle and ostentatious worship of God. Thus the knowledge of Vedic sciences is meant to save the human beings from falling in utter darkness as Isa Upanishad and the last chapter of Yajur Veda caution us. The unity in diversity is the message of Vedic physical and metaphysical sciences.

   In the Vedas Creation is linked to Cosmic Word “OM”, which caused immense cosmic energy. This Energy got converted [into] mass as Hiranya- garbha (Cosmic golden Egg) When it opened/burst, subtle primordial matter of three gunas started appearing and when the same joined in appropriate proportion, gross universe was created in stages.”  

   The Vedas do not deny evolution. Please show me precisely where they do so. They can’t because it was discovered only in 1850s while they were written ages ago. So how can they deny it?

   4) “To be sure of this fact, one only needs to look at the thousands of people who have been cured of the so-called "incurable" diseases.”

   I’m afraid this claim is totally (100%) unbelievable. If ANY magical capacity to prove “incurable” diseases exists, I’d like it to be investigated by James Randi at http://www.randi.org/site/. A $1 million award has been on offer for decades to anyone who proves paranormal powers. Despite many people wanting it, it has not been claimed because ALL people who claimed they had paranormal powers were proven to be frauds! The is NO possibility of curing ‘incurable’ disease. Such things are always a mere cheap magic trick, that can be exposed by careful analysis.

   CONCLUSION

   Let me, in the end, suggest that you read BFN and also DOF (http://discovery.sabhlokcity.com/) and after you have done that we should talk further.

   I’m still not discounting the Baba entirely, although your claims give much grounds to pause. I'm concerned, to say the least. These are not the kind of ideas that will help India.

   But let me be fair to him and wait till I get more information on the Baba’s policies, and understand his policy frameworks.

   Regards

   Sanjeev
6. Harsh says:

   August 2, 2010 at 3:59 pm

   Dear Sanjeev — As far as the plausibility of Swami Ramdev's views on re-calling back high currency notes is concerned, I am yet to research more. As Baba says, he has been involved with the planning and organization of Bharat Swabhiman since at least last twenty years. And this makes me assume that he seriously understands all the pros and cons of his strategy. He has consulted his policies with various cream authorities from their respective fields.
    
   For example, Swami Ramdev once appeared in Rajat Sharma's Aap Ki Aadalat, where he revealed that he met our PM Mr. Manmohan Singh and discussed this issue with him. Mr. Singh replied that once, when he was the governor of RBI, he raised this issue, but was suppressed by the surrounding corrupt officials. Swami Ramdev then asked him why he doesn't work toward this measure, now since he is the PM. Mr. Singh smiled, and Swami Ramdev got his answer.
    
   If you can understand Hindi, please view the original video of Swami Ramdev on Aap Ki Aadalat at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmhlW3tNfzI&feature=channel
   
    
   I am sure that Swami Ramdev has concluded the pitfalls of globalization after consulting economic experts. This is not to say that Swami Ramdev is completely against globalization. It's just that he wants to "make it our strength, and not a weakness." I am yet a beginner in economics — a university student. I am myself researching more on the practicality and rationality of Baba's views, for looking back on what I have studied until now, his views certainly defy trade-laws of economics. But I would (being open to any views that challenge corruption) not discount the possibility that this might seem to appear under-valid just on the surface. Maybe, once I know his policies and their repercussions in great detail, I will make myself more clear and grounded.
    
   Now, discussing about the Vedas: Yes, you are right in that the Vedas deal mostly with scientific aspects. The quotes from the Vedas you referred to all point to the scientific basis of the Vedas — OM, being the original sound vibration that created the primal energy for the creation of the universe. The phrase, "Gross universe was created in stages,” does not allude to the theory of evolution, in any sense, although it might appear so on a shallow, out-of-context study. The phrase 'in stages' simply means that first, the spiritual energy was created and then the material energy consisting of water bodies, trees, rocks, etc.
    
   Besides all the natural elements, the material energy also consisted of ego, mind and intelligence (ego — first stage; intelligence — second stage; and mind — third stage). After mind, all the senses (and the body) came into existence. The first created mortal-human was Manu. The Vedas do not claim that humans evolved from fish and so on. So far as dating the Vedas is concerned, it is still open to debate. The Vedas themselves claim that they appeared from the mouth (Mukh) of God Himself. They are words uttered by God, and realized by the seers and sages. In other words, the Vedas were not were not "authored" by the sages themselves — that's what the Vedas claim. To back my points, I suggest you read Stephen Knapp's book 'How the Universe was Created and Our Purpose In It', where he mentions original references to the Vedas. Read about the book here: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/how_the_universe_was_created.htm
    
   Regarding your conclusion regarding all the "miracles" being 100% false, I believe it is a matter of personal experience. Western thinkers and scholars have always tried to comprehend the world with the eyes of logic and science. Hence, they try to find science in ALL "miracles." Yes, it is true that many so-called Swamis and Babas have turned out to be hypocrites. But, let's not make a conclusion so soon. Patanjali, in his Yoga Sutras, mentions eight supernatural powers attained by an accomplished yogi — such as, being able to walk on water, being able to become tiny or super-huge, etc. I don't claim that Swami Ramdev has attained these. But, I cannot discount it either. Most siddha-yogis refrain from publicity. The yogi who has such powers will not come forward to prove himself just to win a monetary award. In short, to reiterate the point again, miracles are a matter of personal experience. There's no point in debating on this topic.
    
   Finally, let me clarify the following point I made: "To be sure of this fact, one only needs to look at the thousands of people who have been cured of the so-called "incurable" diseases.” By mentioning this, I didn't intend to allude to any paranormal powers of Swami Ramdev. To reaffirm this, look at the following quote that appeared in Yog Sandesh: Swami Ramdev has taught people to practice yoga in a routine way. He has never pretended. He never claimed to improve one's future by analysing their horoscope. I just intended to direct you to his scientific grounds. He is probably the most scientific, practical and unpretentious Sannyasi I have seen until now.
    
   Having said so much, I would like to admit that if I have been unable to explain Baba Ramdev's messages effectively, in a way that he intends his followers to, then it is entirely my under-qualification. Please do not judge Swami Ramdev entirely on my writing. I would encourage you to watch his shibirs, visit his Yogpeeth in Haridwar (which I haven't yet been too), and research deeply before reaching any conclusion. I have tried my best to represent him.
   
    
   Thanks Sanjeev — I will read the book you suggested me to.
   Harsh
    
7. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

   August 2, 2010 at 8:30 pm

   Dear Harsh

   Thanks for the extensive comment. Very valuable.

   It has been nice chatting with you and learning about Baba Ramdev's ideas. Also, thanks for the useful links. I'll keep exploring more as time permits.

   So let us resume our conversation after you have read BFN (at least).

   Let me close with a quotation from Vivekananda: 

   ‘Liberty in thought and action is the only condition of life, growth and well-being: Where it does not exist, the man, the race, and the nation must go down.’
   

   Regards

   Sanjeev
8. chaitanya says:

   August 2, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    
   Hi Sanjeev,
   I like your blog and your straight talk attitude.
   Let me first say that i know next to nothing about baba ramdev and his movement. My comment here is only because iam perplexed by this statement of yours, which iam seeing for second time on your blog.
   >> I don't believe changing people is either possible or necessary in order to get wonderful outcomes. Human nature has NEVER changed for a million years and won't change just because some Baba somewhere wants it to change. He doesn't control our DNA. That has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years.
   This is too broad a statement. I request you to clarify and elaborate on this. maybe iam missing some deep principle here.  What *exactly* never changes ? Which *specific* aspect of human nature that is relevant to our discussion here, NEVER changes ?
   As far as i can see, humans respond to education, and can change their behavior. Suppose i were to run a campaign not to throw plastic bags into a sea, it would atleast "change" one persons behavior, doesn't it ? This change is based on a recognition that throwing plastic in seas is not good for marine life or whatever. In my own personal life, my behavior changed many times in response to new information/knowledge that i have been exposed to.
   Similarly, can people their behavior with respect to corruption ? So if someone is speaking of changing society "inside out", they are speaking of inducing behavior change through a change of moral compass. Is that not possible ? You say, its all based on incentive. But as i see it, the "incentive" here is MORAL incentive of not being corrupt.
   Or, are you suggesting that MORAL incentive's don't work at all, and only monetary and legal incentives work ? Let's take a trivial example: Suppose a person-A is angry at person-B. What stops person-A from killing person-B ? Is the incentive only a legal one ? (Being afraid of being caught  by police). Or is there a deep moral incentive at work here ? I would argue the latter incentive is more powerful. Perhaps Baba Ramdev is trying to inculcate a moral incentive against corruption ?
   It seems to me that if monetary and legal incentives were the only governing human behavior, society would have been in utter chaos by now. I would argue that bottop-up incentives are as important as top-down incentive structures that you advocate, for the overall health of a society.
   Iam also perplexed by latter part of your statement:
   >> Human nature has NEVER changed for a million years and won't change just because some Baba somewhere wants it to change. He doesn't control our DNA. That has evolved over hundreds of  thousands of years.
   "evolution" itself is synonymous with "change". Certainly you don't mean human DNA evolved (changed) over hundreds of thousands of years, and suddenly stopped "changing". Is bringing up DNA relevant at all to this discussion ? Do we have proof that human social behavior is hardcoded into DNA ?
   When we speak of change in social behavior, we are speaking of change on a software (mental) level. Are you suggesting that some behavioral aspect (for example, being corrupt) of human being is hardcoded into DNA in "Read Only Memory" fashion, and that is beyond change through will power ( from software level ) ?
   Thanks for your time.
9. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

   August 2, 2010 at 10:15 pm

   Dear Chaitanya

   I have spent considerable time analysing human nature in the draft manuscript (chapter 1) of The Discovery of Freedom (http://discovery.sabhlokcity.com/). I have also looked extensively at the human brain and our evolutionary history, as part of this analysis.

   And thus, from extensive evidence, I suggest that humans will not change merely by being preached at. I use the word DNA very broadly, to reflect all innate capacities and interests. I'm not denying that our family upbringing matters. Our parental guidance matters. That's all fine. 

   But all of that doesn't prevent people from killing each other in communal riots, from burning their wives in kerosene oil, from killing their infant daughters, from killing thousands in the partition riots of India, or from ordinary murders. It doesn't prevent crime and corruption. Indeed, many religious "leaders" themselves have the lowest possible morals. I need not go into details. Read the newspapers! Every day is evidence of human nature that has never changed and cannot change merely by preaching. People will be people: ignorant, conceited, mistaken, confused, even (in some cases) violent.

   I also notice (from extensive evidence) that incentives matter a lot and how these are organised (governance of a society) matter a lot more. Corruption, for instance, can be eliminated very quickly through a right mixture of rewards and punishments. All the Babas in the world can't make India honest, but the solutions proposed in BFN are GUARANTEED to make Indians honest. These, btw, are also similar to solutions applied in the Asian tigers, for instance. Singapore and Hong Kong were the world's most corrupt places not so long ago. Now they are the most honest. Preaching never fixes anything. Solid economic theory and scientific analysis of society does.

   Please consider reading my books. They contain extensive details that will clarify my points. Let's then talk after that if you still find a single flaw in my arguments. And I'm open to be persuaded if any of my points is found wrong. Any.

   Regards

   Sanjeev
10. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 3, 2010 at 7:20 am

    Bill Hothi accidentally posted his comment here: http://sabhlokcity.com/2010/07/are-ftis-views-synonymous-with-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-965. Posting here as well:

    I hear Baba RamDev frequently. Even if his policies are not fully explained or formed yet, he does have guts to speak out. Obviously, it needs to be seen whether he is sincere and his followers are truthful.
    Cash money is one thing he will have difficuilt time avoiding but he can account fo it through his governance of his organization. I twill be impossible for his kind of organization to get everything white although, he should be able to do so.
    I would tend to think that few Babas like him, will make our job that much easier as we can have such a momentum built up.
    Your thoughts please.
    Cdr. Hothi
11. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 3, 2010 at 7:25 am

    Dear Bill

    I'm very fussy about this issue of black money. If he claims to be anti-corruption crusader he CANNOT accept more than Rs.200, say in cash (or some such very small amount equal in worth to a small meal). Even that should not be accepted. Beyond that ONLY cheques should be accepted. And all money should be diligently accounted for.

    I do agree that FTI's job can become easier if he is on the right track and if he is willing to work together as a team. I'm keen to keep options open at this early stage and unless I'm convinced that he runs a corrupt organisation (like I'm convinced about all major parties in India today), or has significant policy gaps, or is unwilling to work as a democratic team, I'll not rule out working with Baba Ramdev and his team. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev
12. Harsh says:

    August 3, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Sanjeev — I appreciate your interest in combating corruption. To successfully materialize your efforts, we will require unity power — unity in thought, approach, manpower, and policies. You should seriously consider visiting the Patanjali Yogpeeth in Haridwar and personally meet Swami Ramdev, or his close associates. I am hopeful that your knowledge of and experience with the right policy measures will bear much fruits working together (if Baba is indeed a genuine man)!
     
    It is possible that he is unaware of the right policy measures, and that your suggestions (such as allowing only cheques for transactions above Rs. 200) might assist him. It is also possible that there are a few corrupt employees (or volunteers) in the organization and Baba Ramdev is unaware of them. Babaji would be willing to fire them from service if he finds out. It's necessary that FTI keeps a humble approach, and with sincere heart, approaches Swamiji's team with an intention of a truly enduring transformation.
13. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 3, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    Thanks, Harish,

    I've already spoken to a person who knows him well, and await a response. (I'll remind him.) I might have met him in India while I was there in Feb/March, but at that time he was in Ludhiana and I couldn't have changed plans to go there, given my very tight schedule. I agree that it is crucial to have unity in thought, approach, manpower, and policies. That, by the way, is the fundamental aim of FTI itself. So let us all wait and see.

    I'm sure the people of India are clear: they don't want division. They want a political force that works for their interest. And we must aim to provide them the best in everything: education, infrastructure, law and order, justice, and job opportunities. They also don't want any corruption anywhere. So if that is what they want then it is our job - of the educated people – to ensure that for them. In doing so I'm not fussed whether someone is a yoga specialist or a doctor or a farmer. So long as they all agree that socialist policies have to be replaced and a totally new governance model adopted, we can ensure a great India. 

    Just like making a car requires a car specialist, good governance requires a policy specialist. That must be ensured. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev
14. Bhagwad Jal Park says:

    August 4, 2010 at 3:25 am

    We need to be deeply suspicious of anyone who claims to offer the answer to all our complex problems. If I've learnt anything regarding public policy and politics over the years, it's that there are no easy answers.
    I agree with you that human nature has remained unchanged for thousands of years irrespective of country, and ethnicity. Knowing this, it's immature for anyone to claim they can singlehandedly do a better job than all those who have tried for the past 6000 years of documented history – especially someone who has zero experience.
    Unfortunately, there are some people who feel that they have the answers. No rigid system of thought is going to be perfect. Once rigid rules are put in place, one can find a way around them. There need to be a few grey areas. India has a long way to go, but let's not shirk from the journey by looking at magical solutions. For our size and diversity we're not doing too bad a job compared to other countries, so let's stay the path.
15. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 4, 2010 at 7:22 am

    Dear Bhagwad, if India is fine for you then so be it. No one can change someone who doesn't want to change.  

    Regards

    Sanjeev
16. Bhagwad Jal Park says:

    August 4, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    Actually I was referring to Ramdev when I talked about immature and simplistic solutions – not you :)
17. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 4, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    I thought so. But my point is unchanged: Why are you suggesting that corruption is good (not so too bad)? – "For our size and diversity we're not doing too bad a job compared to other countries, so let's stay the path."

    Corruption is not too bad? Poverty is not too bad? Infrastructure is not too bad? Illiteracy is not too bad?

    What is your standard for India? Just this deplorable condition? I have a MUCH HIGHER benchmark that I outlined an early dedication of BFN: At least a 4-bedroom house for each small family; at least two cars, at least an opportunity to get into university, health insurance, and so on. I do NOT accept India's current situation. It is intolerable, particularly since it is self-inflicted. It can be easily changed. You and I can change it. Nothing to do with 6000 years of history. Such thinking is shoddy and half-baked. We need clear headed thinking. That's it.
18. Bhagwad Jal Park says:

    August 4, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    I've often said that India is one of the most miraculous countries I've seen. I don't compare it to another country's standards simply because there IS no other country like it. I had written about this a while ago: http://www.bhagwad.com/blog/2009/politics/democracy-in-india-ignoring-the-naysayers.html
    I would say give India another 150 years. That should be about right taking everything in perspective. Not just to improve its economy, but also so that people are educated, more people understand their rights etc etc. You can't put the rush the development of a nation – especially a large and diverse democracy.
19. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 4, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    Do nothing is your solution? Miraculous you call it? What's miraculous about laziness?

    Why 150 years? Why not 15 years? Why not 5 years? Isn't it a shame to destroy the potential of six MORE generations before India wakes up? What's holding India back except its lack of self-faith and DEMAND for excellence.
20. Bhagwad Jal Park says:

    August 4, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    It's miraculous because we've survived for this long without breaking up when no other country in the world expected us to. Before India, it was accepted that a democracy could only function if the country was ethnically similar, economically well off and not too large.
    There are some more reasons in the link I had given.
    India changed the rules of the game. We need such a long time because it takes that much time to change a billion people. Those who are living now may not have the appropriate personality but there's a much better chance that their children might, and an even higher chance that their grandchildren will. That is why we need so much time. It's linked to biology :)
21. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 5, 2010 at 6:27 am

    Yes. In BFN I've pointed out the excellent outcome of Sardar Patel's commitment to one India, and Nehru's commitment to democracy. Agreed on these two things. Not miraculous but good.

    As far as the rest of your rosy picture that things happen automatically, I couldn't disagree more. If reforms don't occur, divisive pressures can build up so that there will be no India 150 years from now, but a fragmented sub-continent of many nations – as has always been the case in India's history.

    You need a strong state that ensures the prosperity of all. The social contract breaks down if the state acts to sabotage growth and denies justice, as is the case with India today. Naxalites are only starting up their protest. Expect many more thousands to die. Nothing automatic about freedom. EACH generation has to fight for it and advance it.

    You my dear friend can't take the easy route with this shoddy and half-baked argument. No escaping YOUR responsibilities.
22. Bhagwad Jal Park says:

    August 5, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    I agree that it won't come automatically. And that's why one tries to do one's bit by organizing peace marches, writing blogs and whatever else we can – like what you and I are doing.
    The problem I see is that too many people have come to the conclusion that India is not worth saving and that there's nothing good about our country. How can we fight for something which we're convinced isn't worth saving? The purpose of what I say is to provide a balance. Yes, we have a long way to go. Yes, we need to fight. Yes, we need to be scared that divisive forces will break us up. And in my blog, I'm constantly highlighting these dangers.
    But we need to spend some time reminding ourselves of what we're fighting for and why it is that we're worth saving. For that we need a bit of faith, cause we can't see the future. My only goal is to increase that faith.
23. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 5, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Let me first lay my cards bare:
    1. I do not beleive that yoga is any better than numerous other stretching exericises
    2. I do not trust Ayurvedic
    3. I do not think that their is such a thing as 'yogic powers' (or God for that matter)
    4. I don't beleive that vegetarianism is the best.
    Baba Ramdev is a very popular man with numerous passionate disciples. He is very opinionated about politics and one of his promise is to bring a corruptionless politics.
    Now, this is a very tall claim. In India corruption is omnipresent. I do not know how many cases of corruption baba has exposed so I do not beleive that baba is capable of eradicating corruption.
    IMO, baba runs a very profitable organization. There are 'Patanjali clinics' everywhere in Maharashtra and they advertise 'free medical assessments'. However, after the assessement (by some fake doctors), they recommend you medicines that costs Rs 500 + for a small bottle of 'magic' water…that can cure Flue to Cancer. I do not know if any recepits are given or any income tax is paid for these 'services'…but I wouldn't be surprised if none is paid.
    This whole Baba Ramdev thing is a massive scam. Stretching exercises marketed as panacea, promises of corruption free society and unnecessary criticism of 'foreign powers'.
    While I have many things to say I am not sure if anybody would even read my rant so will stop now.
    Thanks,
    -Nitin Gulhane
24. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 5, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against people who want to do yoga or prefer Ayurvedic. Its everybody's choice. It is also entirely possible that Baba Ramdev is a very honest man who beleives that he can bring about the change…and he has every right to propagate his message. However, I am fearful that people might actually vote him in and I am pretty sure that it will be disastrous. Major difference between India and Pakistan are freedom that these countries accord to their citizens. Its very easy for citizens to lose their hard earned freedom under the pretense of 'national/greater good' and 'spirituality'. WIth overly spiritual people like Baba Ramdev controlling national policies, its a disaster waiting to happen.
    What kind of person I would prefer as a politcian:
    1. Knowledgible – Who has some understanding of the world
    2. Ambitious – Without ambition there can be no politician
    3. Human – I do not mind them having some vices natural to humans
    4. Honest – Not Raja harishchandra…but intelligent enough to know that he cannot take all money to heaven
    5. Not overly religious – Religion is an opium
    Makes me wonder why I am not contesting elections myself :-)
25. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 5, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Thanks Bhagwad.

    I have faith in India and Indians. That should be clear from the most casual reading of my work that's in the public domain since February 1998. 

    I demand a bit more: I demand citizenship. That people take responsibility for the governance of their own country – and PROVIDE the better governance themselves instead of complaining all the time about the useless people who govern India.

    So now please write about FTI on your blog and ask people to stand up and be counted. No more "taking" the garbage from our 'leaders'. Just BECOME the new leaders. 
26. Harsh Vora says:

    August 6, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    This comment is for Nitin Gulhane — It seems that you have not researched enough. Nothing can be further said to a man who has concluded himself on a topic that has a huge potential of research. Conclusion is death — death of constructive discussions, possible solutions, and potential transformations. You do not believe in yoga, Ayurveda, or vegetarianism, all of which hold tremendous possibilities for a man of faith. When I say faith, I do not refer to faith in God. But rather faith in a scientific system of thought that has been passed on from ages to ages by seers and sages. While I do not bother to list all the benefits of  all of these practices (due to a lack of time), I would urge you to maintain a  seeker's approach — willing to dive into deep waters, not knowing if you will find anything pearls. If you are open and daring enough, you might find something immensely valuable.
     
    You said, "I do not know how many cases of corruption baba has exposed so I do not believe that baba is capable of eradicating corruption."
     
    Let me offer my views on this: To eliminate corruption, you need NOT EXPOSE any corrupt officials. In fact, exposing corrupt officials might add oil to the fire. It might make them take revenge on Babaji, and endanger his life. In addition, exposing such people is like working on the surface. Why work on the surface (and expose corrupt officials) when you can reach the roots and eliminate the source of corruption?
     
    As far as you views on Swamiji's profitable business is concerned, let me clarify that whatever he charges barely covers the cost of his R&D facility and other production expenses (it seems that the ruling government hardly provides any monetary encouragement). Swamiji himself lives a life of a sannyasi. Even when he goes abroad, he sleeps on the floor, wears saffron robes, and eats once a day. In other words, he is very obedient to the rishi-parampara and sannyasa dharma. He openly invites any critic to visit his manufacturing facilities in Haridwar and check for himself. His character is as pure as a crystal — nobody has been successful in vilifying him.
     
    To give an example, few years ago Vrinda Karak (I suppose that's her name) tried to accuse Swamiji of using human bones in his medicines. Swamiji invited her to visit his facilities and make judgments accordingly. Now, after years, Vrinda Karak doesn't even appear on television. Apparently, it was a politically motivated attack on Swami Ramdev. Even now, you are free to visit Haridwar and research deeply on whatever qualms you happen to have.
     
    You said, "This whole Baba Ramdev thing is a massive scam. Stretching exercises marketed as panacea, promises of corruption free society and unnecessary criticism of 'foreign powers'.
     
    Again, it is in vain to discuss on this point any further, for it seems that you don't even follow Swami Ramdev properly.  If you watch his shibirs, or read his Yog Sandesh magazine, you will find thousands of people who have been cured of supposedly incurable diseases, ranging from cancer to paralysis. Public interviews galore. You might argue that such people are paid to speak in favor of Swamiji or for that matter, yoga. This point immediately becomes invalid when we look at the number of people involved. It is impossible to bribe thousands only to speak FOR yoga.
     
    Finally, I only have to say this: Why not give a chance to a person who has come forward and accepted the challenge to combat corruption? Why make a conclusion about his fake-ness so soon, when all the critics who previously tried to vilify him have been proved wrong? Why not research deeply? Why not maintain an attitude of a true seeker craving for a lasting transformation? Keep religion aside. Why not support him, help him wherever he needs help (for example, in formulating right policies)?
     
     
27. Harsh Vora says:

    August 6, 2010 at 11:50 pm

    Continued . . .
    
     
    Oh, and regarding your point on the falsity of "miracles," let me say that Swami Ramdev does NOT (publicly) claim to do any work through the help of any supernatural powers. He does, however, believe in the power of human effort, karma and in the grace of God. He does NOT cure people on the basis of any so-called paranormal powers. He COMPLETELY relies on the power of yoga and Ayurveda for transforming people's lives — physical, psychological, and spiritual. In other words, in a way, he helps people cure themselves.
     
28. Anupam says:

    August 7, 2010 at 6:09 am

    @Nitin Gulhane
    KV No. 1 Indore 1992 batch ?
29. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 7, 2010 at 7:58 am

    Harsh said: If you watch his shibirs, or read his Yog Sandesh magazine, you will find thousands of people who have been cured of supposedly incurable diseases, ranging from cancer to paralysis
     
    If my son falls sick, I take him to Allopathic doctor and not to Ayurvedic doctor. When my father broke his arm, I took him to doctor who specialized in that branch. When my mother was diagnosed with cancer I took her to Tata Memorial Hospital in Mumbai.
    If I ever get a heart attack, I will get admitted to the hospital that have modern equipped invented by Americans and manufactured by Germans.
    I ensured that child was immunized for Polio and other diseases using modern medicines and not some silly magic water created by 'inventors' and 'scientists' workig at these Patanjali clinics.
    Would you have gone to Patanjali clinic if such things happen to you?
    If not, why not?
     
30. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 7, 2010 at 8:05 am

    About corruption: There are many countries that are quite corruption free and countries like India, Nigeria, Pakistan are steeped in corruption. What do you think is the root cause and how baba ramdev is going to remove the root cause?
    Corruption is a crime just like murders, rapes, pickpocketing, theft, sexual abuse etc. It needs to be dealt likewise. You cannot brainwash people to become pious.
    Greed is an important part of being human. Take greed and ambition out of human and we get an useless animal.
    In summary, my opinion of Baba has gone further down after you telling me that there are people who claim that their cancer was treated by Baba Ramdev's medicines.
    My request to you is that, if your family member falls sick , please seek allopathic medical help and do not jeopardise their lives by treating them with baba's magic water.
    I am not going to write any more on this subject. I am intrigued by the author of this blog (I stumbled upon it just a couple of days ago) and I am going to find out more about Mr Sanjeev Sabhlok.
31. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 7, 2010 at 10:06 am

    Anupam, No. I lived and studied in Maharashtra (Amravati, Pune). But its good to know that I have a namesake.
32. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 7, 2010 at 10:25 am

    @Harsh Vora, I find it hard to beleive that Yoga and Ayurvedic can cure complex deases like Cancer and Paralysis when we ourselves don't trust it for curing our common illness. 
    Is there a controlled study of this? There isn't. People beleive anything. Be it Lord Ganesha drinking milk or Jain Sadhu not eating any food for 70 years. Just because there are thousands of characters who say that Yoga of Ramdevbaba cured them doesn't mean that its actually true. Statistically, more people  are cured by Shirdi Saibaba than Yoga of Ramdevbaba.
    Let me reiterate, I have absolutely nothing against Yoga and Meditation. I am actually supporter of it. What I am against is baseless tall claims.
    If Yoga can cure paralysis or cancer, I would like to see a study paper from the reserachers. I will learn Sanskrit if they decide to publish their studies in that language. However, in absence of such a study, I will have to conclude that this is all bogus.
    Proving it is very simple. Just don't take any Allopathic medicines when you fall sick…I have done that and let me tell you, Ayurvedic and Homeopathic medicines are useless.
    Yoga is a great exercise…but thats pretty much it. Its NOT a magic exercise that will keep you healthy forever.
    You can do yoga, run 2 kms per day or lift weights or play soccer thrice a week. All of it will yield the same results.
33. Harsh Vora says:

    August 7, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    You said, "In summary, my opinion of Baba has gone further down after you telling me that there are people who claim that their cancer was treated by Baba Ramdev's medicines."
     
    Please be rightly informed. I have never said, nor has anyone else said that cancer can be cured only with medicines. Cancer, when it is in the early stages, can be successfully cured (or avoided) by following Pranayama (breathing exercises). The simple science behind Pranayama is this: Our body, on a larger percentage, is dependent on oxygen.  Most of the diseases are caused due to unregulated oxygen in the body. When we breathe in proper pattern, our body gets sufficient oxygen, and we remain healthy from most abnormalities.
     
    There is no magic involved in this system. It is pure science. Yes, it's true that Ayurvedic medicines take longer to heal. And Swami Ramdev is a supporter of Allopathy, so far as the bone problems (or other severe problems requiring urgent attention, like fracture or heart attack) are concerned. However, one can AVOID most diseases by practicing yoga (including Pranayama) on a daily life. If you have a hole in your heart (I am not sure what this disease is called), or if you have tuberculosis and similar problems, Pranayama (coupled with Ayurvedic medicines) can successfully cure them in a few months. You need NOT undergo surgical operations. There are innumerable benefits derived from Pranayama (which only a regular practitioner can experience). I encourage you to watch some DVDs of Swami Ramdev explaining the science behind Pranayama exercises. They are available on http://www.divyayoga.com.
     
    If you want to read research papers claiming to cure cancer (or other so-called incurable diseases) through yoga and Ayurveda, you are free to visit Patanjali Yogpeeth's laboratory in Haridwar. As I said, you seem wrongly informed. They have research papers available in English/Hindi itself. You need not learn Sanskrit for this matter.
     
    Lastly, let me say a word on the following proverb: "Prevention is better than cure." Why not practice Pranayama (which is a part of yoga), and prevent the diseases? Why not make your bones stronger, and body livelier, when an ancient, proven science (of yoga) is available to us? As I earlier said, do not conclude. When yoga (and Pranayama) can cure thousands of people, it may as well cure your son, or you.
34. Harsh Vora says:

    August 7, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Note: The above comment ( timed on August 7, 2010 at 12:45 pm) is in reference to NITIN GULHANE's comment.
    
35. Nitin Gulhane says:

    August 8, 2010 at 1:01 am

    Harsh, I may not watch the youtube video that you provided…but thanks.
    I usually avoid anything that beats the logic and common sense. So no matter how many millions talk about sacred ashes of Sai Baba or Gajanan Maaharaj or Tirupati Balaji, I will NOT accept it. There are movies about ability of Tirupati Balaji and Sai baba to cure all diseases. I still vividly remember that Manoj Kumar's movie where he says that he is a scientist but beleives in ability of Sai baba's powers.
    If ANYBODY can cure cancer or paralysis, he will get a Nobel prize in Medicine.
    Healthy life, healthy food, calmer mind and good exercise is proven to improve health…but none of that can be effective on germs of Malaria or Swine Flue or Cancer or AIDS.
    India is full of blind beleifs (thats a hallmark of all backward countries…in Africa you will meet many Voodoo guys and medicine men).
    Ramdevbaba is very vocal against coca cola and other stuff. QUite laughable when most of the country cannot provide clean drinking water to its citizens. I challenge any Ramdevbaba follower to prove that coca cola has more germs than the drinking water in our country.
    In my town, there are pharmacies everywhere….all jam packed. The reason for this disaster is the stupidity of our leaders and uselessness of our administrative system. As leaders are mere reflection of our society, the blame goes to each of us.
    If India has to improve, people have to stop beleiving that some messiah is going to rescue them. Not going to happen.
36. B.L.Sharma says:

    August 10, 2010 at 12:43 am

    Dear Sanjeev,

    I read your article ‘My initial views on Baba Ramdev’s movements’. It’s interesting and meaningful; I have also gone through Mr.Harsh’s comments and your replies. As you know that prevailing condition of our Country is alarming. Corruption in politics is at its peak, poverty, illiteracy, black money, and duplicity in edibles and even in life saving drugs. All the evil forces have griped the Nation. The human values seem to disappear from the society.

    Now, my humble submission to you is, do you have a way out of this danger zone? Do you have some concrete planning? Can you suggest some strategy to overcome this situation? You cannot ignore the hard fact that at least Ramdevji in its small way making a strong stand, whether its political issue or socio-economic issue.

    I know the situation is so very worst that for Ramdevji, its like selling mirrors to blind people. But you must appreciate that he has made a mark on the Nation and strongly believe that he is the who can bring the change, therefore I pray to the almighty to keep him moving on the right direction

    Thanks.
37. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    August 10, 2010 at 6:22 am

     

    Dear Mr Sharma

    Note that I am not suggesting that what Baba Ramdev is doing is wrong. Indeed, he is perhaps the best yogi we have in India. I detest those yogis who are so 'other-worldly' that they have no eyes for the suffering around them. Baba Ramdev is not just  teaching good health mental and physical. He is trying to reform the malaise of our governance system.

    I have indeed a strategy. I have written in detail about it in my book which I assume you will now read (if you haven't yet done so) since you did ask the question. Download from http://bfn.sabhlokcity.com.

    And indeed, some excellent leaders are already assembling on the Freedom Team (http://freedomteam.in/). My focus is not just on finding good people (like Baba Ramdev). It is on finding good people who understand policy. Nehru was good but his policies have badly  harmed India. So also Ramdev may have policies that will harm India badly. He is not a policy expert. Goodness is not enough. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev
38. Vijay Mohan says:

    August 24, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Thanks for such a healthy discussion .. I am a true supporter of Ramdev and its mission.. I believe in him and his policies , and moreover i believe in him because he is working and working day and night , even before the election comes into picture , he will have lots of social work in his account.
    Its not easy to understand his policies  , but definitely a chance should be given  this guy .
    I hope all positive and great personalities work together for the advancement and uplift of the country , working against each other and absence of unity is the problem why good people cant unite , there is no dearth of good people , its just the unity ..
    I hope Ramdev acts like Acharya Chankaya ..and do it …
    Jai Hind
39. Supratim says:

    August 26, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    Harsh says:

    “Our body, on a larger percentage, is dependent on oxygen. Most of the diseases are caused due to unregulated oxygen in the body. When we breathe in proper pattern, our body gets sufficient oxygen, and we remain healthy from most abnormalities.”

    See, this is the problem of trying to follow Ramdev or any other guru – when they get their own basics so wrong, what hope can they hold out to any rational being about other topics on which they have no training or education.

    My immediate, multiple thoughts:

    1. The human body is 70% water. Why not focus on water instead of oxygen?

    2. So, if we could *only* breathe those viruses (or is it virii?) and bacteria to death – we would be saved from all ailments. Hmmm, 3000 years of civilisation, and still searching for a cure for the common cold

    3. And, wait, what about cholera, typhoid, dysentry – they are all water borne diseases, how are we going to breathe them out.

    4. And, then those terrible vectors – malaria, dengue, yellow fever, etc – all carried by various insects. Idiot, don’t breathe them in.

    5. And, then finally the Big-C – where your own body starts mutating against you. Stop breathing now.

    Heh!

    (sorry, sanjeev, couldn’t resist)
40. Vijay Mohan says:

    August 27, 2010 at 2:20 am

     
    For your Kind Information , M D Anderson Cancer Institute has agreed to study the Yoga after Ramdev convinced them with certain facts that , Yoga including Pranayaam has positive effect on cancer patients..   It seems those Doctors are so irrational .. 
41. Supratim says:

    August 27, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Yes, many doctors agree that yoga is good for you, including Pranayaan.
     
    From there to ague that yoga cures cancer and AIDS is, I guess, the next logical step in scientific discovery.
     
    <yawn>. The Indian Medical Association is still waiting for Ramdev and his cohorts to provide the data about their cancer-curing ability, after accepting the challenge in January 2008.
    http://ramdev-yoga.blogspot.com/2008/01/swami-ramdev-accepts-ima-challenge-to.html
     
    Another day, another brick in the wall.
     
    <yawn>
42. Vijay Mohan says:

    August 27, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    Thats gutsy of him to accept the challenge
    There must be something that IMA and MD Anderson is interested 
    I am desperately interested in finding the results , That will be a big achievement
    .  . Your <Yawn> shows that .. You already know He will not be able to prove.. with even Worlds Best Doctor are researching over it …. just wait for 3 years after the due date before <YAWN>
     I am sure He can convince you also , once you meet him ..  I have seen real effect  of Pranayam in my own family .. So I believe in
    I think he has got his basic rights.. someone else needs to check his basics 
43. Supratim says:

    August 28, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    Vijay,
    He is already 2.5 years into this challenge – I am waiting another 6 months to go by his own timeline to provide scientific data. Both those last words are very important – scientific, ie showing evidence of statistical singificance and data ie not stories or beliefs.
    I will truly be happy to be proven wrong – however, as you have also rightly guessed, I think the chances of my being proven wrong on this is infinitesimal.
    I check my basics against data and evidence – if you have any insights into this, I would like to know what do you think Ramdev checks his basics against?
    The other fact-based reason that I am sure of my grounds and that Ramdev's claims are hogwash is the lack of even anecdotal evidence from the Ramdev camp – given he has so many followers who flock to him for their ailments, how come no one has come out to say that I had 3rd stage or 4th stage cancer, the doctors had given up hope, but "baba" cured me? How come there are no stories, even? Does he swear the success stories to secrecy.
    You may choose to believe whatever, but on facts till date, Ramdev is yet another of our charlatan gurus.
    cheers
     
44. Vijay Mohan says:

    August 28, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    Wait for another 6 months My friend.. So Will I ..
    I think He already has compiled some cases like such in the Book "Yog , vigyan ki kasuti par"
    not sure .. if he dis that for IMF or other ..
    You and everyone else is free to think anything about him…  
    For you he has done nothing good to society or country .. grt ..
    Regards,
    Vijay
45. sangos says:

    September 11, 2010 at 3:04 am

    To understand the real purport of the Baba's ideas; one has to appreciate where he is coming from and that is Yoga – something like the japanese Bushido. Yoga's goal is to transform an individual to a supposedly purified state of mind and body. In that state a person has youth( meaning great health – no dispute on that account) and a stillness of mind ( suit yourself if you consider that an elevated state). What follows is that when we have nation built up of such 'yogic' individuals, then everything starting from national politics to an individual's sex life happens in the optimized ideal way.
     
    Now the argument can be how can one man's ideal be the other's? Well baba says certain things are univerally ideal, which means a group of people with strong Yoga would have similar ground. Just because one increasingly tolerates evil does not make it ideal ex. major number of Websites are pornography…nothing divine!
46. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    September 11, 2010 at 9:53 am

    Dear Sangos, I have no problem with Baba’s teachings of yoga. When he goes beyond, then problems start.
    Regards
    Sanjeev
47. Vishal says:

    November 13, 2010 at 8:41 am

    Hi Sanjeev,
    It is not necessary that Baba Ramdev or for that matter anyone needs to understand economics, policy, meaning of freedom or political science beforehand. People learn over time. He can surround himself with educated thought leaders (like yourself, mr. Atanu Dey, Mr Sanjeev Bhagwat and many more in India and outside) and get this right, once he has junta's support. At least he demonstrate truthful will and seems to be honest (at least lives using 2 piece of clothes and sleeps without mattress).
    I think it is not mandatory to search for ideal fit to start with, if the will is good, idealism or near idealism will be achieved with time.
    You mention that any money accepted in cash is black… most shops in India accept cash and don't give receipts…I think even you might have purchased some stuff in India and would not have asked for receipt, even that was black money and does not leads to sales tax to Govt.. so u actually underpaid to avoid tax. What I want to say here is: it is more important to ensure any money is utilized in right away (again right is subject to debate but lets say for now.. used for good of humanity).  Policies and being righteousness change with time… if you want something which doesn't change with time, then it has to be rooted to humanity (humanity , love, truth probably do not change with time). But, then why politics and why India….we can help in Africa (Sudan).. But, we have to accept that we are not living in ideal world and all rules are subject to individuals..we have to see greater good and ignore minor issues and individual parts.
    very recently, i hit on FTI and your blog.. and I liked many things..but, i would say, a clean slate change is sometimes not possible…each system has flaws.. and sometimes, we can try to be part of that system and help in correcting issues.
    Also, I want to say is energy directed in educating/correcting is better then criticizing.
    I am thinking to be part of FTI but right now, I am not in India so cannot contribute much.. so will wait.
    Regards,
    Vishal
    vishal.krs.singh@gmail.com
48. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    November 13, 2010 at 9:15 am

    Dear Vishal

    Thanks. I think you should join FTI if you agree with its basic principles. It is not a political party but its members can be part of any political party. I don’t mind if they are members of Baba Ramdev’s group, either. So far there is no evidence of that group being a corrupt entity so one has to give its members the benefit of doubt.

    Once you are inside FTI you can influence its strategy – e.g. the issues you raise. Each member has an equal right to influence policies and strategies. Please not that I am merely ONE member on FTI and while I have views on what you’ve suggested, I do not decide its strategies or policies. It is the team that decides: one vote per person.

    In the meanwhile, before you finalise your decision to join, please recommend FTI to other friends who may have the potential to lead India.

    Regards
    Sanjeev
49. Rahul Soni says:

    February 13, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    RT @TopsyRT: My initial views on Baba Ramdev's movement http://bit.ly/efwPDb
50. valve says:

    February 14, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    1 question sir??
    Why will save India???
    you????
    Can you risk ur life,expose corrupt like baba Ramdev does???
    stop barking and do something for country instead of making someone’s words look dirty on the basis of ur personal opinion.
     
    If you can’t do anything then for god sake don’t stop someone who risks their life to save India.
     
    I and along with me 1 crore people donate to Bharat Swabhiman instead of wasting money on leisure stuffs.
     
    Don’t you dare call my money a black money.
     
    Donations to temples are controlled by State/Central GOVT.But you wont raise a word against GOVT??
    uhh a typical sickularsit
51. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    February 14, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    Dear Valve

    Obviously you hide because you can’t face an honest discussion. Am I saying I’ll ‘save’ India? Where did I say that? It is you and the people who have to step forward. All I’m suggesting is that if you are serious about reforms, then you need to know what you want and how to get it. Policy making requires a good understanding of the concept of freedom.

    This is not a leisure outfit. FTI has leaders who are preparing to offer concrete policies and leaders to India. I have no problem with Baba Ramdev’s intentions. I only question some of his policy credentials. That is where there is scope for discussion.

    Of course if you are the kind of person Baba Ramdev represents then clearly there is going to be no discussion, I assume? What’s your name, Sir? Why do you hide like a COWARD – speak up your name and let’s have your credentials. Let’s find out what you know and what you have in mind for India. I’m sick of cowards like you who hide behind the bush.

    Regards
    Sanjeev
52. RA says:

    March 7, 2011 at 8:58 pm

    HOW MUCH HAVE U BEEN PAID BY CONGRESS AND MULTI NATIONALS?
     
53. RA says:

    March 7, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    Corrupt genius a result of contaminated food which is called Asur Buddhi., that u are Mr.Sanjeev Sablok. Asuras are mortal and Suras are immortal. you know this. don't you?
54. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    March 7, 2011 at 10:16 pm

    RA, I’ve fought all my life against corrupt Congress. I trust you know that.

    Re:Multinationals, I’ve not been paid by any, but I’ve bought lots of things (such as computers) from multinationals and have paid them, instead!
55. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    March 7, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    Dear RA

    Please say that to the geniuses who have discovered the great truths of science. You’ll hardly find a vegetarian among the greatest geniuses of the world. At least 95% are non-vegetarian, since most of them are from the West, and mostly in the last 500 years.

    Ratio-wise, vegetarians are grossly under-represented in the geniuses (that’s NOT because vegetarianism has anything to do with genius, but because most Indians – where most vegetarians of the world are located – have unfortunately not learnt to think critically, a failure I’m trying to address.) Btw, you are obviously a “Sura”. Please disclose your identity and your genius. What have you invented/ discovered/ contributed?

    In general, it is best we discuss things scientifically, and not on the basis of flawed conceptions. That way, we can both learn something useful.

    Regards
    Sanjeev
56. Dr Tenzin Gogoi says:

    March 8, 2011 at 3:51 am

    Ha Ha!! Dear sanjeev why don't you moderate such comments?
57. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    March 8, 2011 at 7:48 am

    Dr. Gogoi, only when foul language is used I do moderate – but that is very rare. 

    I am here to show the way for India's success. I need to persuade all RAs of India to start thinking critically. Only then can India even dream of catching up with the West and overtaking it. My goals for India are not very different from Baba Ramdev's. The only difference is that my methods (critical thinking, freedom) work, whereas Baba Ramdev's can't work. 

    My methods are 100% guaranteed to make India a truly great nation. Baba Ramdev's methods have 0% chance of success. 

    Both good men, both have same goals, but one's method (mine) will work, the other (Baba Ramdev's) won't. 

    So the choice is India's. Does it really want to succeed in a big way or not?

    Regards

    Sanjeev
58. Kumar Dipti Mondal says:

    April 12, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    Please don't be act as critics only.
    If you do something better please do. Else let us (including Ramdev) to do what we want.
    Before raising any question (what you had depicted) in public , particularly where we people are doing something, please verify the same with your own.
    Raising question is OK for clarification but it should not be in public if you had doubt. If you are confident then only raise question in open forum, what we are doing actually.
59. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    April 12, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    Dear Kumar

    Why – are you Ramdev’s spokesperson? Why is Ramdev afraid of questions? I’m not. I run an open blog. Anyone can ask me anything.

    I expect open discussion as a BASIC requirement of a free society.

    If you have particular issues, please raise them. You are not entitled to stop open discussion.

    S
60. Manish says:

    April 20, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    Sanjeev ji Namaste,
    What you have written shows your concern for the country and our society.
    Ramdev's intentions are very clear to all indians whether living in India or in other countries. He wants to eradicate corruptions and bring change to democratic system in such a way to make it more suitable to our cultural needs. Same laws to enforce democracy may not work in all the countries. The samvidhaan compiled by Ambedkar ji as claimed by veteran readers, is very similar to what British enforced to loot and torture the Indians then. These things need to be addressed again. The society has becoming a capitalist society and there is very little for poor. The transfer of power to Nehru hasn't helped india to curb any corruption. It has grown in leaps and bounds since then. Year on year the amount of scams is growing. Who is generating all that money, it's actually generated in farms by farmers and in factories by poor labours. The money generator is poor and not able to cope up with the increasing cost of production. There are many organizations and individuals who are working with these farmers to adopt the heritage way of farming and they are making more profits also by doing the same. But why is governement not taking the similar initiatives to make farming urea, d a p free. why are they not telling people that indian cow is not mere an animal, it is indeed out mata who can protect farmers and bring the cost of production very low. Why are we always striving for Nuclear deals. Can't we find other means to fulfill the requirement. Solar energy, gobar gas are something which are not available in most of the countries as available in India. Do we think that the technology for gobar gas will be developed in USA or Japan. We will have to develop these technologies and protect cows. 
    Here comes Baba ji who is giving 'ahuti' of everything to bring this change. He definitely needs persons like you who can give more technical details and make him more strong. There are many Indians who are giving whatever they have for this Yagya. I have given whatever I had. Please come and join hands so that we can bring some change together.
61. Supratim says:

    April 21, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    Sanjeev,
    Just using this as a place marker to remind Vijay Mohan that we are now in April 2011 – to mark that more than 3 years have elapsed after Ramdev and his group took up the challenge to demonstrate a cure for cancer. I believe the Rationalists Society of India also offered a similar challenge, which was not picked up.
    Also, a placemarker for these sites, as of today:
    http://www.bharatswabhimantrust.org/bharatswa/Hindi.aspx
    http://www.divyayoga.com/important-items-for-download.html
    Both sites solicit donations for Ramdev and his multiple organisations, but there are no accounts placed online. Neither is there any information on any of the sites as to how one can obtain the annual accounts of the trusts.
    Given that so many people on this site have said they donated to Ramdev, do you get an annual report from the trusts about the sources and uses of funds? If yes, could you post them online here?
    Seriously, where is the transparency from the guy who wants to remove corruption from India?
    Manish,
    A small postscript – the technology to use solar energy was developed in Germany and the USA.
     
    Cheers
     
    Supratim
62. Nitin Gulhane says:

    April 22, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    Baba Ramdev is my favorite person to vent against.
    Howmuchever I dislike him, I wouldn't underestimate him. His financial muscle and his fan following is enormous.
    India, at this point, is lacking a hero. Common man totally distrusts govt in general and politicians in particular. Educated class wonders why developed world has left minor issues like poverty, child labor, child education and bad infrastructure far behind while India is left so far behind.
    Indians will hold on to any straw that can provide them a hope. I can promise you that Indians will elect absolutely anybody who catches their fancy and if they are convinced that he/she is honest.
    Baba Ramdev fits the bill. He is charismatic, he is popular and large number of people will find him trustworthy.
    I do not know what is holding him back. Probably some backroom plan is hatching. I would expect him to get into full fledged campiagn mode by the end of next year.
    Seriously, I would take Congress any day over Ramdev baba. Ramdev Baba and his cronies will take India at least 100 years back.
    Anybody who supports Ramdev baba here has any idea who will be the PM and Home Minister and defene minister if Ramdev baba gets to form the Govt? I am sure you don't. Most people do not know enough about his inner circle…and its a dangerous one. I assure you.
63. Supratim says:

    April 22, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    Nitin,
     
    Personally, I still think that there is a lot of hype about Ramdev – both positive and negative – and, a lot of hype about these "civil society wallahs" who think they have done a great thing with the Jan Lokpal Bill. Just today, I got a post about how Ramdev will go on a fast from June 4th, and the "Parliament House will crumble in dust" along with "all the things we inherited from the British".  Even, with all due respects to Anna Hazare, his contemptuous dismissal of the average voter was appalling.
     
    I have seen this once before -  experienced it first hand – post 26/11 in Mumbai – when "civil society members" swamped the discourse, held vigils, promised never again, said they shall be active as citizens. Net result? The state elections held in 2009 in Maharashtra – Mumbai voting % was 35%!!!! So, much for these activists.
     
    On the other hand, I have been really, really pleased with the voting percentages so far in Tamil Nadu, Assam, Bengal – over 75% in most cases – so, the voter, so damned by Anna, are at least exercising their franchise – let us see what the verdicts are now.
     
    If you live in urban areas, and follow the blogs and groups and comments of the "devoted and crazed" followers of Ramdev, you could be swayed and think that there is a wave coming – nothing of the sort – just visit the smaller towns, villages, mufassil areas – development is the core agenda. In some way, a winning political  slogan could be "be you ever so personally corrupt, as long as you are going to develop my district, my tehsil, my town and my state, I shall vote you in!"
     
    Interesting stuff that is happening – don't lose your rational thought process, Nitin. As I said before, India has never listened to a demagogue. The sky is NOT falling.
     
    Cheers
     
    Supratim
     
64. Sanjeev Sabhlok says:

    April 22, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Supratim

    Good to have you back after a long while.

    Re: a winning political  slogan could be "be you ever so personally corrupt, as long as you are going to develop my district, my tehsil, my town and my state, I shall vote you in!"

    I think that is the rational strategy underpinning ANY social contract: that you give me a good outcome and I'll support you (or your government, or even the government as an entity). The politician must appeal to self-interest, not to high-flown abstractions, including the "elimination of corruption".

    Baba Ramdev is definitely going to win seats. Not sure how many. But he doesn't have anything to offer people apart from a slogan about removal of corruption and banning cow slaughter. 

    Now these things are all well and good (to some) but they don't bring home the bacon (or vegies, in India-speak).

    His economic philosophy will be his undoing. If he reverts to socialist policy by upturning the limited liberalisation we've had, the corruption in India will become increase 100 fold, equally as development and jobs come to a standstill.

    Baba Ramdev is a high-risk candidate for voters and they, in their wiser moments, might think twice about what exactly he is going to get them.

    The only reason India exists is because our voter is a DESPERATELY SELFISH individual. That is good. He cares for abstract things like "religion" only an extent. Above all he wants a job and wants his family to prosper. That means that anyone who can't deliver AT LEAST the level of liberalisation we see today, will be booted out.

    S
65. Surya says:

    April 23, 2011 at 4:03 am

    Supratim's comment is the best I've heard in a while. I spent my childhood and adolescent years in a small town and it amuses me to see how out of touch with reality these activist folks are.

    I am not justifying corruption. But every society has passed through a stage when it appears hopelessly corrupt. In the nineteenth century the west would have been as corrupt or worse, with little regard for the rule of law. You can't expect the people who have tasted wealth and power for the first time ever, to act gentlemanly. Yes they will flaunt their newly acquired wealth. They do not show the same regard for law, that the old middle class shows.  

    All these will be reined in, when there is sufficient separation of powers.  Corruption won't come down because people will become angels overnight. It will come down because, with increasing competition, entrepreneurs, legislators, consumers, workers will all watch over each other's shoulders and keep each other in check.  

    And government should create policies that aid such an environment. Kaushik Basu, the chief economic advisor of the govt, proposed an idea that in case of harrasment bribes ( where the bribe giver is denied a service/facility that he has a legitimate right to ), bribe giver be granted immunity and bribe taker be punished and the bribe amount be returned to the giver. It is a very sensible idea, because the public official demanding bribe knows that the bribe giver has every incentive to report the act. So it will be a good deterrent. He makes clear that this should not be applied retrospectively. He also concedes that this would still not prevent the case where the same party repeatedly bribes the same official. Despite stating such a clear case, this issue has been blown out of proportion and Kaushik Basu has been villified for spoiling our nation's morality(?).

    Meanwhile Chinese are creating wealth at a break neck speed. Corruption is acute there too. But rather than beating their chests about it,  resourceful Chinese are busy working 80 hours a week, upsetting every other nation's trade balance and creating new towns all the way across the seas in Africa too.

    Gurcharan Das used to say that India is progressing despite it's government and China is progressing due to it's government. Nothing can be farther from truth. China is prospering because like Americans, they are a people with sound common sense. Now that's a nation that I will place my money upon to become a wealthy nation by the middle of this century. Indians meanwhile will continue to light candles and have bitter partisan debates.
66. Surya says:

    April 23, 2011 at 4:21 am

    Actually I am not really sure if it was Gurcharan Das who said the words I mentioned in the previous comment. But he implies that in his books. While I have great respect for him and his optimism about India, I wouldn't be too optimistic about our prospects, if we continue to emphasize partisan politics over wealth creation. 
67. RC says:

    April 23, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Suptratim mentions the rate of vote in Tamilnadu approvingly. Well, the reason people are coming to vote is because they have been bribed with a blender or a TV or something like that.

    This type of giving out of freebies causes the kind of corruption A. Raja was involved in. Where's money for the blender going to come form ? This ends up making everyone poor. It should be condemned. Alas its not going to happen.
68. Loknath says:

    July 22, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    Dear Sanjeev,

    It is a bit baffling to note that you are tempted to or  trying to evaluate Baba Ramdev by putting him in the shoes of Policy makers and Economists. Lets give due credit to people based on their intentions and sincerity without being hyper critical. This attitude is something that our Indian society paid for heavily and that includes people from your generation. Ramdev may be a simple man of limited intellect by your assessment of intellectual merit; nevertheless he has proved more useful than rest of us.
    The fact that the entire nation now knows of a biological wonder- a human without a spine at the helm of affairs as a devil presiding over heinous crimes of unparalleled scale, can be completely credited to Baba Ramdev. The ever clueless and indifferent Indians at least now read and follow the crimes committed by congress party and its bogus leadership and realize how much of victims they were.
    While I am no saint or economist, I have been following every video of Baba Ramdev..including those not telecast..thanks to our paid bogus media. Baba at one point did realize that he is not an economist or a policy maker and that he should weigh his rants on self-reliance in a manner that embraces modernization and did make attempts to get the right message across to every self-respecting Indian who always wished an end to nehru dynasty.